Dimension collapse, mere statement nothing shown on panel regardless. this is the perfect example. Strange is already pretty powerful and has destroyed an entire dimension on his own accord, so how do you take this feat to suggest ALL the power to bust Galaxy comes from shuma Gorath? Honestly Cort, with all the respect you deserve, the most illogical thing I’ve heard is that you tell me that Dr. Your feeble attempts to conflate these two are beyond ridiculous. I would love to see you show me when Shuma Gorath and Vishanti have shown to fight on panel? you're beating around the bush with text in a book and not understanding what's beyond the text and visual eye pleasers. Hopefully something that shows his powers. By that fanatic ? This is just insane fanboy ranting. Never actually attributed? Cyttorak vs. the Serpent. An already amped up Dr. there are none. they are extra dimensional and freely roam the multiverse. Fail again. However, Shuma-Gorath was able to take over the Ancient One's mind, a man who was Sorcerer Supreme at the time, from 1,000 dimensions away. cyttorak's magic, is unlike the vishanti. Strange), to the point Doc. Show me an instance where the LT destroys a kiddie playground. Shuma Gorath takes on Odin, Dormammu, and Cyttorak at the same time and still wins. Metaphorical. No galaxy was destroyed, the statement made is but a hyperbole.". some think yes, some think no. In Marvel Super Heroes, Shuma-Gorath was arguably the best character in the game, and in Marvel vs Street Fighter Shuma was god tier and his chaos dimension did 3/4 of a life-bar of damage, which was more than everyone's super save for Cyber-Akuma's Shining Gou Shock. A long time ago, when the world was so new nothing had a name, something woke up. then hyperbole it would be. 2. I took that as Hulk using Juggernauts own momentum against himself. 1 Summary 2 Powers and Stats 3 Others 4 Discussions Cyttorak is an ancient god who was worshiped by the beings of Earth until he was banished and moved to the timeless realm of the Crimson Cosmos. Your own deficient logic would push so far as to say that a hyperbole is a statement that you don't see manifested in colorful photos/pictures/drawings (even when it dwells on the bounds of fiction). hypothesis should suggest that nemisis and cyttorak are brother and sister while Genesis is the father of the elder gods, celestials, and universal abstracts. 3. I am not saying Shuma Gorath's power did not empower him, however what i am saying is he did not bust a galaxy, nor can we say the entire energy is of shuma gorath when Dr. Shuma-Gorath is an ancient force of chaos, ruler of over a hundred alternate universes, capable of energy projection, shapeshifting, teleportation, levitation, altering reality, and sympathetic magic among many other feats. stalemate! Cyttorak vs. Shuma-Gorath. Coz we dont know how the fight went. The panel states that the Engine was empowered by the MAO (one of which is Shuma-Gorath), which then also communicates that the MAO were capable of making a single being, a counterpart of a being (Galactus) who isn't even the most powerful Abstract, into something that made the other Abstracts, Gods, and Celestials feel mutually INSIGNIFICANT in battle (reinforced by the event in which some of them were FLEEING from the Engine and getting likewise, KILLED). Marvel staffs/ editor agree that unless something is actually shown on panel its conjecture/ hyperbole, and thats what my view has been forever. Sucks for you. You're making matters fairly worse for yourself the further you carry on in your ridiculous low-balling tirade. He wasn't mortal at all when in Shuma's realm. Yeah. Much like when the Infinity Being (another omnipotent) KILLED itself from loneliness. So where is Shuma's power level that you are attributing to him coming from? Cyttorak doesn't seem to want to get involved with others and likes to sit in his own dimension. As per my argument and its comparision with sand castle, i would feel bad had you actually refuted any of my claims. About as valid as me stating that stars don't exist. No influence? Thanks for the A2A. The panel disagrees with you. Thanos: Here he actually destroys a planet as a side effect of his battle with Drax, not a mere statement something actually shown on panel. answer this. @TabithaCucumber said:. You just confirmed that you haven't even READ the points without further construing them in the right context, and now you're just basically hurling strawman at this point. this is relating to a time paradox which relates to the space-time continuum i've written above. Do you know what Tom Brevoort's trade in the Marvel comic business even is? Purported to rule over hundreds of dimensions, Shuma-Gorath came to the Earth-Realm over 1,000,000 years ago, along with the other Old Ones. He has NO impressive on panel feat . There is nothing bias when someone is asking to show you an on-panel proof for someone. Show me a single Hell-Lord who could match the might of the entire Vishanti. Combined might ? Then the Galactus engine feat is overblows, Galactus engine itself is likely extremely powerful. A similar statement was made by Jonathan Hickman on formspring as well, but i'll have to look for it, or perhaps just ask him another question and wait for a week to get a reply. You need to work more on LOOKING at the panels in their entirety and not glean over them just because the colors look pretty. It has already been demonstrated that Gorath can influence and destroy other realms and planets without entering them. Thanks for playing... but you still fail. That is also very likely, given that Strange had already changed himself 'terribly' whilst partaking of the 'same energies of chaos' as Shuma did in his earlier statement. Laugh all you want, like i said on panel depicted feat nothing impressive at all. Talk about blowing a feat out of proportion. You fail. Thats just my view. Because Brevoort, who is an EDITOR (NOT A WRITER) and never wrote for these characters nor created them, is NOT the one with full sway or creditable dominion over the contexts, stories, and ideas conveyed by the panels, since HE NEVER WRITES THEM ANYWAY. I am not lowballing i am asking for proof. Kaluu's statement is a quantifiable one at best, having with no poetic or boastful character's bravado involved and is backed by the fact Strange's mere presence caused the lower planes to collapse. He isn't destroying anything. Even if we were to take his bogus opinion into account, being stronger than Zom/Shuma-Gorath still doesn't put Cyttorak on the level of the Infinity Gauntlet. Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, ... That was an interesting scene. Oh, I beg you.... How is that not impressive ? I suppose not. But all i ask is an un-ambigious feats, like him doing something, or him destroying something. It's quite clear that your bias has blinded and driven you to the point you'll say pretty much anything (no matter how false or wrong it is) and even pull things out of your bottom when the debate isn't tipping in your favor. you keep mentioning that the vishanti created the fabrics of magic, but that is just elemental. Yes, the evidence contradicts what you're saying. Your definition of hyperbole fails. None. beings that are restricted of/to/through time.... or the beings displaced of time? The difference i am trying to show is their feats where depicted on panel, we can actually see planet busted, LT absorbed, a sun go supernova, a universe get shield, or bodies of death Galactus. That makes TWO double standards in your latest reply. The power Strange used to supposedly destroy galaxies (never shown on panel anyways) was never actually attributed to Shuma. All of that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Busting planets. Who will win in a fight between Shuma Gorath & Cyttorak and Dormammu? Its a simple burden of proof, if you want to show someone as a particular kind of power, shown me him doing so on panel, not mere hyperboles. Abraxas is angry and out to kill. 2. No character in Marvel can conceive what Cyttorak is, but only through aspects of what the perceived emotionally feels to view him as. or Sise-Neg? maybe schematics might make you understand better and i'm getting tired of typing. One does wonder, though, if Cyttorak is so powerful and has voiced his desire to spread his influence, why is he only really capable of sending one avatar to do his bidding. Personally, I always thought Cyttorak had such a massive ego, that he didn't leave his home. maybe even higher. If all else fails, try, try again.... unless you're clearly making sh*t up and really desperate enough to pull one out your excreting end to play as a filler for your lack of concise argument. I think that shows Cyttorak's powers are greater. Cyttorak is a fictional character appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. marvel already mentioned that it is a space with "no time", therefore it is not linked to the multiverse and their pockets. Shuma has had (from a storytelling perspective) to beaten because he couldn't win from a a narrative standpoint, else the universe would have been devoured. Shuma-Gorath appears as a playable character in the fighting game Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes, voiced again by Frank Perry. Team Multi-Eternity (8th Cosmos) vs Team The Living Tribunal. See thats the same burden of proof on the other side, not to mention, as always you are hanging on to a hyperbole without either Shuma Gorath or anyone actually doing that. Show me a single Hell-Lord who empowered a weapon to the point where it could compete with Abstracts and Celestials in battle. THAT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destroying planets. Still doesnt change the fact that he has done anything significant. I get that Tom Brevoort, an EDITOR who never wrote for any of these characters nor determined their power set, shares your dilapidated views. Some weird goings on in the universe has made the entire universe warped, merging dimensions and causing chaos. Add that with the fact he could casually create mystical simulacrums of planets and toy with it any way he wishes. Look on the bottom left corner. who is older? Robert E. Howard or Steve Engelheart would have made far better authorities to appeal to, given that they're the ones who wrote Shuma-Gorath and determined his story, direction-taking, and power set. Team Shuma Gorath vs Team The Living Tribunal. dr. strange even stated this while he was comparing himself to dr. doom. Gorath already displayed that he could casually destroy planets from his home dimension. Anything? He and the other Old Ones were banished from the Earth-Realm by the time-traveling sorcerer Sise-Neg. You fail again. Do you know how to actually respond without being rude? cyttorak is more powerful than zom and the vishanti for reasons that strange is humble at the presence of cyttorak than he is in front of the LT, ZOM, galactus etc.. why is it dr. strange can be arrogant before mephisto, dormarru, death and oblivion yet he is humble before cyttorak? I.e bunch of hyperboles and stuffs done on his domain where he is all powerful and still losing, yeah totally. "If I brought you to Earth in your present state, you could -- and -- would destroy galaxies!" PLANETS. No. This is just a rude ranting and people refers to stunts like this when they dont have actual feats or argument to make :), Never actually shown on panel, so will wait until you can show me something he has done, on his own accord, on panel :). everything is inside it. Living Tribunal: I could obviously point how he stopped IG a weapon that has shown to have operate on a multiversal scale, but here's one where LT causes a sun to go nova with a flick of his hand :), no hyperbole something shown on panel. It's been stated by the Vishanti that they have, which by the way, is reinforced when it is mentioned that Agamotto himself was unable to 'destroy a Lord of Chaos'. Gorath could destroy dimensions simply by exerting his own energy within his home dimension. it's speculation correct. Shuma Gorath vs Cyttorak. However, he still lacks any quantifiable feats of his own. Just words. And look at that. Shuma Gorath takes on Odin, Dormammu, and Cyttorak at the same time and still wins. Alrighty, then. Galactus Engine feat, ok lets go with a logical assumption, Shuma did amp the engine a bit, without knowing how much that feat becomes plain impossible to use in a battle, i would love to see you make a reasonable argument of his power level without those 2 feats? Most of them are pictures with little context. trion juggernaut was using 0.0001%. What someone sees of Shuma-Gorath and the other Great Old Ones is just only the barest fraction of the monster's true form, the 3-dimensional tip of a multidimensional iceberg. :). I always took that as feeling as though he were above everyone else. I mean the bios and the panels say he became Shuma-Gorath. When Stephen Strange stood near Kaluu's portal, an explosion immediately occurred. Cyttorak vs Thanos. Cut your wanking. Show me a scan where the One-Above-All destroys a planet. If you agree with the context, yet miss this clear fact, you are either A) schizophrenic, B) not sober, or C) biased beyond the roof. That guy said that if V were to fight S, the energy release from their fight ( not only from V, but from S too ) would destroy the plane. But they're not. Strange said Dormammu was his most dangerous enemy, Cyttorak’s power was presumed higher than anything he ever displayed in the comics, by fanboys, some even claimed he was as powerful as the Living Tribunal, which was and is ridiculous. Instead of showing me where TOAA destroyed a planet, following your ridiculous logic yet again, TOAA, likewise, isn't powerful enough to destroy a planet? Don't speak to me about horrible logic when you can't even figure out what the panels themselves are communicating here. (if shuma leaches of cyttorak bc trans-infinite absorber -/- unlimited and constant power) cyttorak wins if shuma is not latched to the crimson cosmos. Don't make absolute statements regarding matters of which you know NOTHING. now answer this. His own aura made Stephen Strange a GALAXY-buster, fought a battle that busted multiple dimensions, and casually toyed with the Earth from 1000+ dimensions away. @Killemall said: His fight with Strange was destroying multiple dimensions. On the other hand, Shuma-Gorath itself gets weaker when it leaves its home dimension. 4. I see no reason to believe he is powerful, just because fans try to wank the hell out of his feats. In essence, you just appealed to the wrong authority. LOL. What in Brahma's name are you even blubbering about? But I don't blame him for that. Then Subject B (The MAO in this case) improved Subject A from its current state to where it surpassed ABSTRACTS (plural) and BEYOND. 1. D'Spayre was going to control the entire UNIVERSE with a fraction of Cyttorak's power. ", In the name of the Eternal Vishanti, grant me the Circle of Cyttorak. I completely agree with you there. Thank you, for proving once again that you don't actually bother to even look at the evidence and spew whatever broken argument comes to your head. Kind of make sense when we have earlier stories actually addressing Dr. Thank you for playing. He can teleport, shapeshift, change reality, and harness imitative magic. in marvel, there dwells deity entities. Gorath also contributed to the empowerment of the Galactus Engine which killed Arishem the Judge and Aegis, made Celestials flee, and made the Abstracts look completely insignificant. And done give me statement, show me him actually destroying a planet, and no summoning a ring of fire without actually doing anything does NOT count as destroying a planet. What circumstances is he referring to? Strange without Galactus even realizing what the hell just happened. That, in and of itself, is easily quantifiable and considerable as a sharable feat for Kthl, Yog-Soter, Nyarlathortech, andShuma-Gorath. Uh... nope. I agree Shuma slaughters in his own realm, and Cyttorak slaughters in his own realm as well. Instead of showing me where LT destroyed a kiddie playground, following your horrible logic, LT isn't even powerful enough to mess up a few KIDDIE PLAYGROUNDS? Shuma-Gorath already demonstrated the ability to directly affect earth from 1,000 planes of existence away. No one knows what Cyttorak looks like; Not even Shuma-Gorath. I'm sorry. let me ask you something..... what came 1st? DURRRR. what he says goes. Something that you do in someone's name. If everyone you listed actually were there, they would demolish Agamotto in moments. No, so i surmise its a hyperbole because there is no on panel evidence / depiction to prove it. After all look at what he says , in regards to BRB/ Thor "If you see them shatter a world, they can do so else everything is hyperbole". Your arguments are easier to refute than it is to crush a sand castle. Show me a single Hell-Lord who was able to destroy multiple dimensions by battling someone in his/her own home dimension (Mephisto doesn't count since all he did was inject a few trembling vibrations to a few galaxies in the 616-universe in his fight with Galactus). You're making yourself look incredibly clownish. The power Strange used to supposedly destroy galaxies (never shown on panel anyways) was never actually attributed to Shuma. 1. Sure people say it wasn't a real battle but a battle on the mental plane. You've obviously let my initial point go over your head by THAT much. The momentum thing happened at Xavier's mansion during the WWH fiasco. Anything you can show, anyone significant Shuma has beaten, or could you show him maybe destroying a planet, a city may be? Thanks again for the straw man. OBVIOUSLY, the term 'omnipotent' can't be quantified within the grounds of Marvel power-scaling since there are VARYING DEGREES of omnipotence in Marvel, and just THROWING the term IN THERE to describe something would be VAGUE at best and can't be quantified. Publication history. Then along came the MAO, who essentially increased the dead Engine's power level to the point it could OVERPOWER its 616 counterpart, Abstracts, Celestials, and Primordial Gods, which speaks VOLUMES with regards to the MAO's power if you've even bothered to read or consider that gap. Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. I am not all that familiar with either Cyttorak or Shuma to make a complete judgement. within it is time and space (space includes sub and hyper)  there are pockets within these space that are hidden (sub-space). I am perfectly sober, in fact i dont even drink. Shuma Gorath & Cyttorak vs Dormammu & Galactus. Team Mandrakk vs Team Chthon. Brevoort is not the inventor nor the decider of the definition of 'hyperbole'. Shuma-Gorath absolutely destroys Cyttorak. Yes, Strange was just as powerful as when he faced Shuma Gorath because he always did have something back to help himself successfully to deal with a powerful Demon as Shuma Gorath again: Strange did have Knowledge / Experience of battle, unfortunately this did not work with Cyttorak because it is a God (unlike Shuma who is a Demon and is in a lesser category than Cyttorak, this is the only logical and coherent point that explains and justifies its defeat by Doc. You just confirmed yourself that Shuma-Gorath actually has feats, nullifying the suggestion that he lacks it. so if, marvel says that cyttorak "could be billions to trillions of years old", that means he can be anywhere from between there give or take a few thousand years. The 616-Galactus, who is presumably the most powerful incarnation of all Galactuses, is = Only One Abstract out of several in the prime universe. Then look at the panel after that. Shai-Hulud. Yep. Don't speak to me about horrible logic when you can't even figure out what the panels themselves are communicating here. Because that's another issue altogether. Not planets. Yeah because the fight takes place in his own dimension, you the place where he is suppose to be all powerful and unbeatable, and ends with him being beaten and absorbed, HA! tell me. And when did Vishanti destroy the universe? logic claims that the elder gods are billions of years old but Sise-Neg is a man of the future who created the universe. This is a blinkstomp. All Shuma did was create a fire ring around earth, which while impressive is practically useless in a fight against people who dont feat fire that is. Change members Create variation Info No Variations. why hasn't marvel released features of cyttorak other than "testing juggernaut on trails"? Wankfeast? Also, this is just my opinion of course, but I always felt that the amps Strange had before his battle with Shuma were "overridden" after he started to become Shuma, as in the taint of Shuma's energy would wash out the other magic be the only energy within him. He seems snobbish to me, like is really is better than most and the troubles of the other dimensions are just so far below him to even come out and make an appearance. Dr. LMFAO! Its obvious you dont have any instance of clear feat, so you resort to insults, how else would you be able to win an argument anyways. Instead of showing me where Thanos crushed apples with his bare hands, following your deficient logic, Thanos CAN'T CRUSH APPLES? The galaxy-busting potential that Shuma's energy had was intended to be taken. A lot of guys in that one scan, with Shuma Gorath flying around as well. Look at the panel again. Strange did have the whole knowledge and preparation of have beaten Shuma Gorath before when later faced Cyttorak in his C.C. The physical and logical law of crimson cosmos (which is a pocket reality) is totally different and unrelated the actually Earth -616- reality.